The above video clip when I shared it with Sri Indira Parthasarathy this morning, it triggered off a very interesting and freewheeling conversation between us on the eternally controversial subject of Caste in Hindu society.
Below is reproduced the Q&A verbatim :
Me: Sir, watching the video-clip made me feel that NRI Indians are like Americans . Their Geo-cultural knowledge (GK) is rather sketchy .
IP: I have a question for you . Are there caste divisions among Hindus in these countries?
Me: I don’t like the word Caste … which is not even Sanskrit or Tamizh or any other Indic language . Its root is Portuguese . The word is Varnaashrama . And yes , it is inseparable from Sanatana Dharma religion. I am a practising Hindu, and I will make no apologies for Varnaashrama .
IP: Ok Let it be varnaashrama
You have not answered my query.
Me: Sir, I’ve been to neither Nepal nor Mauritius . So I don’t know the answer to your question .
But my guess is that yes … even in these countries , Varnaashrama would be part of the Hindu belief system . How exactly the system might be practised is anybody’s guess … since the System itself has for long been vilified by Western colonisers of India as pure evil.
They gave Varnaashrama a new name called Caste … and Caste came to be associated with rampant social discrimination . And discrimination soon somehow became the hallmark of Hinduism .
Perhaps the same happened in Nepal and Mauritius too … I’m not sure .
IP: Is not the division ‘sudra’ humiliating?
(Before responding to this question of IP I reminded myself of his erstwhile Marxist leanings and ideological sympathies).
Me: sir, Sudra becomes a pejorative term if one associates it with economic class conflict … which is the centre piece of Marxism .. You are an expert in Marxism Sir … you know it all so well …
In my view Varnaashrama however as a system of social engineering was not about conflict but about cohesion . It was always about a solid social contract by which society could preserve and protect itself from both internal anarchy as well as external attack.
The structure of Varnaashrama in my view was not that of a pyramid or hierarchy . It was conceived originally as more of concentric circles of Varnas … each ensconced and enmeshed within one another … The Varnas moved within their own respective orbital paths but in total synchronous coordination with each other …. Like a mechanical motored gear box system that keeps the larger engine of society moving at a steady and brisk pace . That’s how Rishi Manu conceived it.
No circle was of the same diameter . But no circle could move independently of the other … they were concentric and centrifugal . Each moved in concert with the other . There was no conflict .
Even the Islamic invaders understood the system and while they plundered and pillaged our country they did not unduly interfere with the delicate but enduring social structure of Hinduism. But the British were bent upon dominating the whole of India and to serve their Divide and Rule policy they devised the Caste narrative based upon the Marxist doctrine of Class conflict. It did wonders for them . They could succeed in dividing Hindu society into warring castes. They transformed the concentric circles view of Varna into the pyramidal and hierarchical structure of Caste .
The post independence Nehruvian generations of Indians inherited and embraced the Casteist view of Varnaaashrama and effectively stigmatised it as the mother of all social evils in Hindu India .
I know Sir you will not agree with my above view since I believe once a Marxist always a Marxist .
IP: Then explain to me how come the bhakti movement came about in history and championed the social cause that irrespective of the varna in which one may be born no one is more or less favoured than any Brahmin to qualify to learn and recite Sanskrit vedas (thirumazhisai alvar, thirupanzhvar Nammazhvar Thirumangai etc)? Was it not a reformist movement against Manu Smriti going with the spirit of those times? If not for such social reformers , world India not have become a Buddhist or Jain country? Tamil Nadu which had strong Jain and Buddhist presence for many centuries, would not have had Hinduism surviving even, would it ?
Me: Great question Sir … and I’ve grappled with it too many times … I’m not a historian or scholar like you , but here is my take :
There is Varnaashrama as a system and Varnaashrama as a practice. The two are not necessarily the same .
Throughout history we see social systems and institutions go through ups and downs , rise and falls…. That’s because civilisational systems at times are practised wrongly or abused … they calcify …if not fossilise.
When that happens , the system of Varnashrama becomes dysfunctional. That happened at many points of time in our history.
At those perilous moments in history, we had god-sent reformers — the Nayanmars , the Azhwars , The Dasa Bhakthas, Ramanuja , Ramanand , Kabir … and so on …
They were all reformers who did not reject Varnashrama system outright but they did strive to change the way it was practised in society at large …
They saw Varnaashrama as a cohesive force in society … not as a divisive one … but they all did recognise that the system was getting abused in some repugnant ways … and hence they came forward to launch their reformist movements.
But Sir look at now! In India after the British , the democratic, socialistic, secularistic Constitution of India wants to throw the age-old system of social structuring of India out of the our home lock stock and barrel. And what is the net result after 75 years of Independence ? We are still talking of Caste ! Caste in elections . Caste in Education. Caste in Job reservations. Caste in distribution of social benefits … And the irony of it all is that while Varnaashrama stands transmogrified into Casteism under the Constitution, with quotas and reservations , society today under affirmative action programs is getting only even more divided and fractured than it ever was even when the worst abuses in history of the varnaashrama system had perhaps happened!
When will we see reincarnations of the Nayanmars and Azhwars and Ramanujas appear again in our country…? I don’t know, Sir . Nobody knows but we can all only hope for it .
IP: But tell me this , then …. In the Srirangam temple, there is the legend of how a Brahmin priest carried Thirupanzhvar on his shoulders and took the Sudra (chandaala) right into the sanctum santorum… only becosss in those days those of the Sudra varna were not supposed to have their footfall in the precincts of the temple . It was a bold move by the Brahmin to do that . But what does it mean symbolically?
Me: Sir, as far as I am concerned, I believe it only means that Bhakthi as a religious doctrine and form of worship (Upasana) helps greatly underscore and it recognises that the universal spirit of humanism is integral and fundamental to the practice of Varnaashram… And that Bhakti is not antithetical, in any way at all, to the system of varnaashrama.
Me: Sir, engaging with you is so intellectually stimulating!
IP: 👍✋
Me: Sir, may I share this our conversation with my other family and friends please ? For those interested ?
IP: You are free to do it.
Me: Thank You , sir .
****** End of conversation ********
Sudarshan Madabushi